For a while he literally slept out in the reeds by a river. Mayre Ann (Yardis) Sproul, 50 Clover Drive, Pleasant Hills, passed away Saturday, July 3, 1965. and me and she advocated that people with addictions be kicked out of church. You dont. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). When I had a knee replacement, they always prescribe opioids for the serious post op pain. That is an important element here. In some ways being secular made it somewhat less complicated though no less painful. He certainly used the threat of excommunication and shunning as a form of the rack. Through the Bible, the word of God, proper and needful organization and administration are provide the body of Christ believers. He is not a strong man, apparently. ~ja, Myself and RC Jrs other adult children are estranged from him. There was no need for pushback, just as there was no need for you to wrongly assume that we are against treatment (which Barbara clarified above). Haha. none of that was news to us he's been doing all that for years. Answer: not that much so dial it back. I dont see the comparison as connecting to RC Sproul Jr., except for the coincidence that they are both alcoholics. Is everybody who offends some snowflake doing so out of the own prior trauma leading them to be a hurter of people? Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. The meshing of the SBC with Calvinists, as Ive witnessed for several years now, both locally and online, has been a great mystery to me. You might as well talk to a brick wall. But is it always a churchs responsibility to tell, advise, or command a person to get some kind of medical or psychiatric treatment? Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R You said, They and their families are all the better for it. The recidivism statistics bear this out, and the treatment programs are just as disappointing. I have been nice to H.A. That was the time between his arrest in November 2016 and his plea deal. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died. And then theres the delightful habit they have of wanting everyone around them to drink heavily as Sproul is reported to have done to normalise their issues. I thought I had addressed this issue, but apparently the post didnt enter. which doesnt answer your question at all, and indeed I dont suppose improves on what you could have said yourself! What will other alcoholics in the pews do or substance abusers who are struggling? No one has said we shouldnt try. One little drink wont hurt is tragically wrong. Thanks, Leslie, for your concern. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. from her years of alcohol abuse. But putting him out of the church does not stop him getting that assistance. Director Co-founder at Ligonier Ministries Vesta Sproul is the Board Member at Ligonier Ministries based in Sanford, Florida. He just masks it well.. Please explain to us how her logic is flawed. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] None of the doctors ever diagnosed the root of my problem. Finally? RC Sproul Sr-time to protect those grandchildren. and me nasty too and to the whole understanding of the complexity of the problems. No. You are strong! My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jrs children still deal with today. I doubt it. To be Faire To Claire, I rather think she was denying, not creating, the correlation, but your point is otherwise important. Alcoholism changes the persons brain. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. It turned out to be rum. I kind of understood what they were saying because I came from a church that was very chummy with Sproul Jr and his teachings. We know each others positions. Sproul Jr. is not qualified to keep his pastoral job. I posted the list about the multi-pronged issues that R.C. ( a few drug addicts too ) I have to confess, I am somewhat intolerant of their behaviors. It is a gift. Thank you. Just my take on it. Thanks for your response, thoughts, and viewpoint. An avid Steelers and Pirates fan, sports were a big part of his life. (which I dont think they should be doing, such as, telling depressed persons to cope with depression by forgoing medication and read the Bible and trust in Jesus). . Gracious hostess, no doubt that its sin gone amok. For instance, Ive no control over my basal insulin requirement; if I take too much Ill be hypoglycaemic (albeit mildly) in the morning, and if I take too little, my glucose levels will be high (albeit much less than they were when I was diagnosed!). I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. It wasnt a law back then.. He has to be protected from injuring himself or others-regardless of the fact that it is a sickness and not a crime. But on Sunday mornings he taught a class at Oreland Presbyterian Church comprised mostly of adult professionals. Obviously, alcohol can cause neurological trauma, but it is unreal the amount of alcohol the people I saw who actually ended up in the hospital were drinking. as opposed to their christian relatives who have been strapped with all manner of convoluted *& conjectured* shoulds and shouldnts. Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. I see this all the time too. It has been unopened for a month now, waiting for the opportune time to celebrate. In this issue I hope that your apparent hope is justified. All. I think its a huge problem that he is still in ministry. I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. Did they brag about how much they can drink, allude to their prowess with the bottle? You get CPS involved to keep checking on he welfare of the children. Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. We want it to be exposed, but we must be careful, have sources checked, etc. (And we are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!!). Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. It matters not if the problem is a sickness or a moral failure. He needs to make amends to all of the people he hurt and to confess publicly at the churches where he pastored about the damage he did. That was maybe confusing. The Steve Hassen Youtube link helps explain that. Heres just one example of his cult-like practices. They see insult where none was intended, and are quick to react and hurl barbs and insults in retaliation. @ Friend: I also had lacerations above my eyes and on my arms and legs, along with scalded skin from an exploding radiator. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: youll follow his example. Probably started that trick during his time in South Africa during the Boer War; its an old field expedient for water purification the alcohol kills off anything biological in the raw suspect water. -Which will bum Velour out for me to say, because she thinks Im not chipper and positive enough about things, but I am stating my reality. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? What's especially remarkable about this case, and therefore makes it even more newsworthy, is that RC Sproul Jr is a well-known and very public spokesman for the Pro-Life movement. Also, we know both vehicles were traveling at 60 mph upon impact. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. They generally avoided RC Jr like the plague. Robert Charles Sproulcalled by his parents R. C. Sproul IIIwas born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on February 13, 1939, the second child of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann Sproul. Eventually, when loved ones look the other way and/or enable the behavior of people who have drinking problems, a crisis will rear its ugly head, as it did in this case. Verse 1 in that chapter is very special to me, as it addresses the right way to approach a professed brother who is living in disobedience to God. Velour wrote: If it was unwise youll have to help me see it. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. I remember the anticipation of validation and consolation as some of those same people also left soon after. This is in keeping with working the steps with a sponsor in a recovery program and cleaning up the wreckage of ones past.. So, thankfully, I am on my week break before school starts again, because if I hadnt been following the comment thread, you would have been comfortable saying that I do not agree with treatment for alcoholics (until I corrected you). How much can I eat and not gain weight? If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. I am glad for your growth that you have shared with us from codependency that your mother taught you that you had to do, something she apparently learned to survive. Contra Costa County? Either way you need to stop putting words in other peoples mouths. She received the same love that she would have been given if her disease had been something more socially acceptableand the church helped prevent her from being isolated. I wonder if Paul accused them of boasting because they were more concerned with numbers and protecting their reputation by sweeping things under the rug. 3. a rapist, Awful. Somehow George Jones song He Stopped Loving Her Today comes to mind. I also think that churches, like employers, play a role in getting people with addictions into treatment. Vesta Voorhis Sproul (age 84) is currently listed at 347 Bellview Pl, Sanford, 32771 Florida and is affiliated with the Republican Party of Florida. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. Sproul Jr.s case raises. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Yes, it would be nice to if Lisa would clarify what she knows about the kind of counseling that R.C. I know 10 years ago if someone indicated a drinking or drug problem I would simply recommended AA or NA or rehab, where at that time they would most likely be directed to attend 12 step meetings after treatment. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). You are correct. @Deb Thank you for the welcome. I learned fairly early in life to fear drunk driving. Perhaps it would be wise for RC2 to be under the oversight of a completely different church where he could be viewed as just another church member rather than RC1s son and the failed pastor. Alcoholism as the saying goes is a family disease. I am commenting on the same statement you commented on. Finally, I leave you with a quote from one of R.C. Barbara simply made some kind of reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you dont agree with. That of course is subjective and christian people will disagree on what is help and what is enabling. If Junior makes the same mistake that the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C. @ Christiane: Whatever legal consequences the judge orders, including a combination of jail time and substance abuse treatment as a condition of probation, would be the best plan of action in dealing with him as a substance abuser. For the first time ever, Ive got the first comment, all the way from England. Any alcoholism (whether helplessly dependent, wantonly revelling in, or anywhere in between) going on in Mr Sprouls life is going on in the life of a prominent minister who claims (and, it would appear, wields) authority over other believers. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] Those children need help as well. Thank You. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. He went to the hospital the next day, he did not want to go that evening but finally, my mother insisted. By the way, he was the only individual who thought I was worthy of a promotion and signed the papers for my promotion. RC2 sponsors keggers for staff in which alcohol is served to CHILDREN!! Drunk driver got Vehicular Manslaughter (if not outright Murder) added to his DUI. Your opinions are important and need to be validated. Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. Sproul, Jr. Steps Down from Ligonier Ministries and Reformation BibleCollege, RC Sproul Jr Is Now a Convicted Felon Alcoholic and Is One Step Away From a Tragedy, RC Sproul Jr. Avoids Prison, Takes Plea Deal for Driving Drunk With Kids, https://relevantmagazine.com/god/rc-sproul-jr-suspended-ministry-after-admitting-visiting-ashley-madison/. if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. I believen you may not know that history with JR. Hi VELOUR, 4. That she didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea. The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. Doctor R C Sproul PhD BA BD, was the founder of Ligonier Ministries, a theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and Presbyterian pastor. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Lea wrote: Those of us who have practical life experience with alkies know theyre masters of deception, and it doesnt get any more deceptive than faking humility, remorse and repentance, something that alkies often develop much practical experience with. The father may be in just as much help as the son from experts who deal with alcoholics and from free groups like Al-Anon, for the family and friends of alcoholism. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. Both men have left a trail of shattered relationships. I, on the other hand, enjoy a glass of wine occasionally. Velour wrote: The group gathered around him to pray. In most cases those sins were nothing more than they wanted to leave his church for another church. I may or may not have had a glass of wine after reading this thread. It works some of the time. I look at it as a psychiatric disorder which becomes an addiction that causes a number of physiological diseases. The alcoholic never thinks about anyone other then themselves. Generally will not drink around them. Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. I respectfully disagree. God gave me a second chance, and Im very grateful! I repeatedly posted that to you last night. But I was serious and stood my ground, even though back then I was usually quite shy around older guys. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. Through the connections we had made a lot of lives were changed. That was a waste of time. As such, certain biblically qualified believers are chose from among the body of Christ to perform certain biblical ministries such as elder and deaconpositions that are selected and maintained by stringent biblical qualifications. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. Caused the police to go on chases all over our parish, physically attacked police officers, lied to and about police officers. Plainly put so-called support programs are overrated. I have always qualified my comments with the fact that the church should seek professional help in how to deal with him and NOT handle it themselves. Whoa, what? You tried to paint me with the same brush, but I happened to read your response and corrected you. a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! What it did do is wake him up to his own sins and cause effective change immediately. When she died, the church (silently) bore all the funeral costs. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. That of course is subjective and christian people will disagree on what is help and what is enabling. A scripture in James 1 speaks of the far-greater responsibility church leaders/teachers hold than believers who are not in leadership. You have my prayers. The church as the playground of sinful social behaviors that are demonstrably harmful to others? I can never forget the time they called me back to try to convince some drunk driver to let us get some x-rays of him and they told me that the others that he hurled his large truck into were in the morgue-man, woman and two children. Many members of St. Peter Presbyterian Church, the church that he started in Virginia, and then subsequently resigned from after hisdefrocking in 2006, often witnessed RC Sproul Jr inebriated, including at various church celebrations (i.e. Back to my point, Al-Anon doesnt make these recommendations including separation. They should be more vivid. a hospital detox AND good psychiatric care are NOT the same thing as enabling because they are designed to STOP the status quo Beakerj wrote: But please dont assume that I am not for treatment. That is also comparing apples to oranges. So behind the times.). Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. Thank you Lisa for your comments here. I still think Im justified in taking offense by such a term. 2. No one can make him do that. And the policy among some here to kick them out and to the curb is indeed a Dark Ages policy and shows a complete lack of education on the subject. Its not your quote. He said that this was one of the reasons that private and secret confession to a priest was adopted. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. I am sure this gossip card is one of the factors that allowed RC Sproul Jr. to get away with what he did for long. I have noticed that you get stuck in a rut and keep going over the same thing over and over again, even though you know the issues have already been covered and logically and responsibly discussed. Hes apparently a carbon copy of Mark Driscoll, only with an alcohol problem. what a moron. My FIL was a terrible abusive drunk, he eventually got sober at age 54. NOW he is a chaplain and accountant for a senior care facility. Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. The hotter it is, the faster those icy cold spirits will flow. Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. Its also not public information. Two or three witnesses principle. As the saying goes, A.A. I dont recall anyone saying addictions alone warranted anyone being kicked out. Sproul Social Network Timeline 2017 He was a writer, known for Calvinist (2017), The Parables of Jesus (2012) and The Gospel: 2016 National Conference (2016). Come on People!!!! Thus if one interprets RC Sproul Jr.s actions as not persevering then according to what they teach Sproul was never a believer. Steven King, recovering alcoholic I agree that he should be put out based on his ongoing chronic abuse behaviors, some behaviors that have not been mentioned here (including his abuse of alcohol which has put kids in harms way). He has had serious chronic abusive and unruly behavior for decades. As it turned out, my depression was more a symptom or a side effect, not the cause of my issues but no doctor I ever saw caught it. We have gone several rounds. We are, after all, all Christians here, and are called to bear one anothers burdens. Yes, the pain is awful. I am glad that anti-depressant medications worked for you. It needs to stop. At least, from the description. I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church on a trumped up charge, like the godly doctor in his 70s before me, and a godly middle-aged woman in finance before him.). These men have made fortunes off the backs of faithful, trusting people. The surgeon told me no steel plate because if my body had rejected it, I would not have survived a second surgery to remove the plate. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. RC Sproul passed on, aged 78 years, on 14th December 2017. And money. H.A. As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. I am not the one who is talking about diagnosis or treatment variables. If Junior makes the same mistake that the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C. For another example allong another line, what about people who make a career out of being hurt, like the current epidemic of snowflakes. He is now a wonderful father and husband. Even Jehovahs Witnesses dont shun entire families for the alleged sins of one family member. And you disagree that being raised under this theological umbrella could cause problems? @Velour, now Im getting your Dark Ages polemic. The hurting people reference has its place, but it is being used as an aggression against anybody who disagrees or has a different opinion and especially anybody who espouses a painful truth which others may not want to hear. If a person backslides then they teach this person never was a true believer really never given irresistible grace.. Cultural/societal/political issues are at play in all of life. I just want to be true-blue, show him that God doesnt run away from us when we are bad. Like Liked by 1 person. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. It didnt sober him up but its good for maintenance of the recovery. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. but continue in the faith. I think that experience may be clouding your reading here. Sproul Sr. will experience, Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to. I think its the same for followers of RC Sproul as well (and John MacArthur). Society meanwhile needs to jerk peoples licenses away from them and remove them from their jobs when necessary including withdrawing staff privileges at the hospital or refusing admission to the pulpit much less being a truck driver-all of it. 5, that you mention: I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is Dee, Deb, totally off topic but can you investigate something for us? Fuss. I have a common interest with one individual vintage automobiles. I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. 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